Is your child thinking about applying to college? This podcast episode is for you. I have as a special guest, Dan Yulin. Now for 35 years, Dan has helped kids get into the college of their dreams. Dan works with both neurotypical children and kids with OCD.

In fact, he has a master's in psychology. So if you want some information to help you and your child win at the game of college admissions, please give this episode a listen. Welcome to the Free Me From OCD podcast. If you or someone you love has OCD, you know that OCD can hold you hostage. OCD can get in the driver's seat of your life.

Here, you'll find the information, tips, and tools to put you back in the driver's seat of your life. I'm Dr. Vicki Rackner, your host. I call on my experience as a mother of a son diagnosed with OCD when he was in college, physician, and life coach to help you evolve into the best and highest version of yourself. Let's dive into today's episode. Today, I have as my special guest, Dan Yulin.

Now Dan has a resume that would make any mother proud. He graduated with honors from the University of Pennsylvania, earned his MBA from the Wharton School, and received an MA in clinical psychology from Antioch University. So he understands some of the issues that arise when raising a child with OCD. Dan has worked in prestigious organizations, but for the past 35 years, he has helped students get into their college of their dreams and set them up for success. So welcome, Dan.

Thank you, Vicki. What a great pleasure being here. Thank you for having me. Alright, Dan. Well, let us dig right in.

You are such a fountain of knowledge. Here's what I'd love to learn today. I'd love to learn what it's like to apply to college. If you had a neurotypical child, how do you win at the college admissions game? And then 3rd, how does OCD factor in?

Lay it on us, Dan. What's college application like these days? Well, wow. A lot of questions. So let me address them sort of 1 by 1 and then have the Venn diagrams overlap.

You know, with the understanding that applying to college is a different game now than it was, you know, 5 or 10 years ago, it's become a lot more competitive. And by a lot more competitive, I'm talking really about, you know, the top 200 colleges. It's still difficult even at the state college level. But, you know, overall, the environment's become a lot more competitive. And by that, I mean, it's a lot more anxiety producing for kids in high schools and for their and for their parents, you know, in terms of taking SATs, ACTs, getting better grades, confusion around the entire application process.

When we're talking about the more competitive schools, and I'm not just talking about the Ivies. I'm talking about all of the all of the competitive schools, the state flagship schools, etcetera. There's a lot of pressure to do well, whatever doing well means. And when I'm talking to parents about applying to college, I'm always getting this question. What is it that admissions officers really want?

Like, what's as though there's a magic bullet. And there really is no magic bullet. You know? There are so many things that go into applying to college. There are the grades.

There are the test scores. There are the extracurricular activities. But if I had to say that there's one sort of prevailing thing that admissions officers are looking for, it's being real. You know? Because admissions officers are looking to admit great kids.

They they do what's called shaping a class. And and when they're shaping a class, they're looking to build a class kind of from the bottom up that will just be great together. And and this underscores the importance of applying early. And I see so many kids, let's say the deadline is December 31st for school or January 5th, really have applications in very late. By very late, I mean, like, you know, it's New Year's Eve and they're still working on those apps.

The earlier you get them, the better. But when I say being real, I mean, for the personal essay, for the common app. And the common application is the one that runs across, you know, almost all the schools. There's a personal essay on there. And the personal essay means personal essay.

It's about you, not about, like, how you won the big game in football, not about how Lady Gaga has inspired you, not about the great conversation you had with your grandfather when you were 3 because here's the thing, they're not admitting Lady Gaga. They're not admitting your grandfather. They're admitting you. And this becomes very difficult and anxiety provoking for for kids because it it it can sometimes very be very painful to dig inside yourself and come up with a story about yourself. And and and being vulnerable is tough, you know, even for grown ups.

But when you're trying to kind of reach inside yourself for a story, that is real and maybe displays a little bit of vulnerability, especially when you think that you need to, you know, be strong and just show, you know, how invulnerable you are, that that can be a little bit scary. Well, Dan, this leads to the obvious question. You know, a child with OCD, the OCD is very much a part of their personal story and who they are. What are your thoughts about being vulnerable and open about that? You know, it's a really interesting question.

You know, I I I've been doing this kind of work for a long time. I started my career as an educator, long, long time ago, and I've been in the sort of for lack of a better word, college admissions business for over a decade right now. There are sort of two schools of thought when it comes to just talking about and I I have big air quotes that I'm showing right now even though we're we're on the audio, around talking about mental health when it comes to applications. On the one hand, there are experts who think you shouldn't talk about it. The reason it goes something like this, Vicki.

It's that admissions officers aren't trained mental health experts. And if you are talking about OCD or an anxiety disorder or your depression, that because they're not trained in mental health, they miss may misinterpret that. And in misinterpreting that, they may think, well, you know, I'd like to admit Susan or Jonathan or Ichiro, but because they've been talking about their mental health, I'm not sure whether they'll be able to handle the pressures and the rigors of campus life. That that's one school of thought. The other school of thought goes something like this.

Listen. It was really brave of them to talk about this, And it took a lot of guts to talk about this on their application. And and because of that, this makes them an even sort of more viable candidate. Here here's where I land on it. I and it's it's the same thing that I landed on when I was practicing as a as an as an intern.

I think it's when you discuss your mental just mental health, particularly OCD, in the context of what it is that you're talking about. If your sole focus is on your OCD, I don't think that's a great idea. But when you're talking about it insofar as it informs and impacts your candidacy, then I think it's useful to talk about. So so let me rephrase let me sort of reframe and rephrase that. I don't think it should be the sole focus of your application, but I think that if it informs who you are and speaks to your story in a way that is in context, then I think it's worth worth putting in.

And here's why I say that. I think that so many kids and their parents, this is a it's a family thing, think of themselves as the seller rather than the buyer when it goes to when it comes to applying to schools. In other words, for, you know, for the pleasure of spending 3 or $400,000 or a couple $100,000 to a state school, they are sort of think of themselves as kind of the beggars and go head in hand to these schools thinking, you know, please please take me. I I think at the same time, they need to be think they the the the applicants, really, the students, the teens, and to a lesser degree their parents should be thinking this. Any school would really be lucky to have me.

And I don't mean for that to be boastful or obnoxious on the part of the applicant, but you're gonna be spending 4 years of your life there. And the truth is that coming in as a candidate, you bring a lot of strengths and some weaknesses, but you're wonderful human being come in and really any school would be lucky to have you. And and, you know, the old saying warts and all, but that's as close as you do as a word. And and being honest and being vulnerable and and telling your story in a way that's meaningful for you, I think helps you punch through the clutter. And let me define what I mean by that.

So many applications come in that I've seen in which everybody's got all ace and they've been the captain of this team, and they've been playing an instrument forever. And while those are all wonderful things, those are all great things. Let me not take away from those. There's a certain sort of sameness to those applications. And I read an article recently about, a meeting of parents in in a in a very wealthy suburb of New York in which the parents came to an auditorium, and they were, admissions officers or AOs as they're called from couple of Ivy League schools and from another great school in New York.

And what these admissions officers had to say was, listen. We could fill up our schools three times over with students just from this school in Skarsdale. It's not just a question of getting great grades. You you your child needs to differentiate him, her, or or or themself. Uh-huh.

And by differentiating, it means, like, how do you stand out? And how you I I think you stand out is by, again, just being real, telling your story in a way that's meaningful for you. And coming back to kind of the mothership here, I was never diagnosed with OCD, but I certainly had a lot of traits that sort of fell in line with what OCD is. And and I think without guilt in the lily here that kids with OCD have a certain superpower. They have that ability to to really focus.

And and, you know, when the anxiety part of OCD comes into play, okay, well, maybe that does become it's only a problem if it's a problem. Right? But, you know, in college, that ability to focus and hyperfocus really pays off in a way that maybe it doesn't in high school. Well, I agree with that, Dan. But here's the other thing that I believe.

I believe that learning how to manage OCD, like how to get back in the driver's seat of your life, even though you've got this monster in your brain telling you things, this is an act of courage. And if you can do that, you can do anything. Yeah. I mean, beautifully put. You know?

And there again is a thought that you can express in in your by the way, let me just sort of rephrase what I mean by application. I don't just mean the the essay, the the core, personal essay for the for the the the common application. And the common app runs across 90% of the of the schools. The here in California, the UC system has its own sort of ecosystem for applications, and MIT has its own application. But but by and large, they all have a personal application.

They have these other essays that are specific to the schools. And in those essays, you can also, you know, talk about yourself. They ask questions like, why do you wanna come to this school? But there are places for you to insert pieces of yourself in in these and coming back, you know, in these essays, we call the supplemental essays. But to your point, talking about how you have managed in your own way in a way that is meaningful for you to manage your OCD, That that shows remarkable bravery and and and, and self awareness.

And and and even if that's just an ongoing thing, if it's like you know? I think of OCD. I think of in the same way that I think of mastery as of any of anything else. You know, I've been playing piano my entire life. I never like to read it.

It's just squiggly lines on a page for me. But mastery of anything is a lifelong pursuit, isn't it? And I don't know that there's necessarily I mean, maybe there's a day at which on which, you know, your OCD is conquered and it's over, and maybe there isn't. But may and then maybe there's a day in which, you know, you overcome your OCD, but you reach out to somebody else and help them with theirs. But I think mastery and one of the great joys of mastery is is a lifelong process.

It's always unpacking that. And I think that if you can express that this is my just my thought, my hit on it. But, you know, I I think that you can express that, again, in a meaningful and vulnerable and emotionally resonant way in your application, in the essays that you write, and and also in the letters of recommendation that your teachers write because many letters of recommendation or LOIs as they're called in the the next con of this business. So many of those are just really vanilla. You know?

Johnny was a great student. I loved having him in my class. I wish him well. You know? It's just such a meaningless letter.

But if you go to your it said it's awful and judgmental, but it is. You know? Really good candidates who are applying go to their teachers early early on and say, you know, miss Hastings or mister, you know, Lechambach. I don't know why I use that name. But would you please consider writing me a letter next year?

You know, I'm in 10th grade. I know it's a couple of years ahead. Would you please consider writing me a letter? I'm going to be applying to these schools. It would mean the world to me if you would.

And here's what I'm thinking about about teachers love that. They they love that. And they especially love when you ask them when you present them with a letter that's a draft of what you'd like to have them say. And when these letters can holograph and dimensionalize what your application is gonna be about, That really presents a whole person. And, you know, I mean, look.

A lot of the time, you you you wanna keep perhaps your OCD confidential. I'm speaking in very, very general terms here. But to your point, and I think it's a wonderful, wonderful point, when you are learning to get something under control in a way that is meaningful to you and you express that in the context of your college application, not only does it show bravery, you know, bravery and and, and emotional resonance and sort of remarkable insight, it also does something really, really important. It shows the admissions officer and the committee, what's it gonna be like when this kid shows up on campus? Not just what is this kid like as a as a candidate.

Is their future their future pacing you as a candidate? You I mean, as an applicant, you can only express you for 16, 17, 18 years on earth, but you haven't had any more experience than that. But what are admissions committees and officers doing? They're thinking, what's it gonna be like, not if, but when this child shows up on campus? And this is the reason they shape these they shape these classes because they're trying to put together a class that's gonna really resonate with one another.

What would it be like to have this person on campus and what will he or she or they'd be like when they're interacting with other people and how are they gonna reach out to other people, you know, especially with the growing kind of I don't recall it mental health crisis that but a lot more openness to mental health on campus with OCD and everything else that goes along with it. American colleges and colleges around the world, but particularly here in in the United States and Canada are becoming much more aware of the need to take take this all into account. So in some way, address the question that you were asking. Oh, I very much appreciate the breadth of your response. Let me ask you this, Dan.

How do you find a good fit for you? We're talking about kids with OCD. You want to be in an environment where you can thrive being you. What are some of the clues that you're applying to the right schools? Yeah.

It's a great question. And I mean, again, you know, I'm basing this off of my experience as somebody who was never diagnosed with it. But I I when I was practicing again as a therapeutic intern, I did work with a lot of kids who had OCD. And and my experience please tell me what whether I'm off on this because you're the expert on this, is that OCD displays very differently in different people and and even within those people at in different ways at different times. Yes.

So I'll just give you an example from a person whose identity of the bible, obviously, obscure. But, this person could be very sort of anxiety written at other times. And at other times, incredibly confident based on how the OCD was sort of showing up in in his or her life. And, so rather than seeing this as as sort of an impediment, when this person applied to college, which I'll just use the collective they did, when they were leaving, you know, their work with me to find a school, it was less a question of, let me find a school in which I'm not gonna feel overburdened with my OCD. It was let me find a school in which I'm still gonna be challenged, but perhaps not where I don't feel like the anvil's coming down on me every day with this one.

But, also, where I'm gonna feel challenged. You know, you don't wanna pick a place that is sort of too easy for you or too hard. And every school has its own has its own, you know, personality, and that personality changes every year. This is this goes back to why admissions officers shape a class because every class is different, and the imperatives of university change every year. You know, there's always a question on a on an application.

Why do you wanna come to and then insert name of school. Why University of Chicago? Why UT Austin? Why University of Massachusetts? And I I gotta tell you, so many students will answer that question with a cut and paste response from, you know, Google Docs.

I've always wanted to come to, insert name of school here, because, insert name of the department they wanna come to, and here is why. And they pick something from the from the, you know, home page of the you know? And I'm not faulting these kids for doing it because maybe they are, you know, trying to get great grades in their senior year, and they're doing, you know, 12 applications at the same time. But the real truth is that every school has its own personality. And to come back to your question, a great way to get ahead of the curve on that one is to start visiting these schools in person if possible, but if not, digging in on a on a deep virtual level and figuring out what's that school like?

Like, what's what are the personalities of that that that school? And if you if you can't, for reasons of geography or because it's expensive to visit the school, visit the school virtually. Reach out to students at that school and find out, hey. You know, why did you apply? What was it like for you?

I mean, if you can connect with another student at that school who has OCD, and there are ways of doing that too. I mean, there are mental health organizations at that school, but students are very vocal. But I wouldn't necessarily just restrict it to kids who have OCD. I'd reach out to to to to other kids and find out, you know, what why did you apply? Like, what was it that attracted you to that school?

And what is it that you really like? And have you found any things that you don't like at that school? And what and and the reason that I say this is that it's not so much, you know, buyer's remorse or buyer's joy after the fact. It really helps you make, as a as an applicant, a a much more informed decision about where you're gonna focus your focus your efforts when you apply. Because, you know, I mean, time is our only nonrenewable resource.

Right? And when you when you and it really say when I said when I'm talking about you, I'm really talking about the apple the applicant. And this is no slim to the parents because it this is an incredibly anxiety provoking time for parents, not only because they're generally paying for college since teens, for the most part, don't have, you know, 6 figures sitting around. Some of them some of them may, but they don't for the most part. But I I really believe that the applicant, the teen, should be, assertive and, and kind of, you know, self advocating when it comes to this entire process.

It really pays off. Admissions officers love it, and and it really serves the interest of the applicant to do that because they learn so much more about it. They learn the art of self advocating, which is a, you know, great skill to have one way or the other, but it's a great skill to have if you've got OCD. I know that some kids are a little reluctant to call the admissions department. They don't wanna be a bother to them.

Yeah. I go in entirely the other direction. I, here's here's how it works at admissions departments. They keep a very careful digital record of every student who calls, who reaches out. And for the most part, it's parents who do that.

I I will give you the tour as an example. So if you are let's say you're living in the Midwest and you are looking at I'll just use a couple of schools as in a couple of the top of my head. You're looking at, you know, Washington University in St. Louis, or you're looking at University of Chicago, or you're looking at University of Iowa, some of these great schools, and you just decide over the course of the summer, look. We we, as a family, are gonna go up and look at some of these schools.

Okay. What generally happens is that the parents will call the admissions department and and say, listen. We're gonna come visit, and we'd like to see if there's tour available. Great. We will book the visit, and they do that.

If the kid does it, the admissions department notices that the kid does it, writes down the name of the kid, use that visit because they they know exactly what laptop that's coming from. So I really suggest that you use the same laptop doing it. And when they visit, here's a great thing to do. This is a this is a pro tip too. This is a writer downer.

Sometimes the school doesn't have a a tour available, or they're so booked they don't have a tour available. But they will notice when you call anyway. And when you call and you say, I see that you don't have a tour available. I just will you please note down that that that I called? And if one becomes available here's my name.

Here's my number, here's my email address. I hope you remember me and I wanna thank you. Always ask the gatekeepers name. It's usually not an admissions officer who picks up the phone. It's usually a gatekeeper.

Gatekeepers have great power. Ask their name, ask their email and then send them a quick thank you note afterwards for their time. I cannot tell I know that sounds so little. Like, such a minor thing. I cannot tell you what power that has.

Here's another hot tip. When you go visit the campus, whether or not you're on a tour, ask a student or stop a couple of students. Ask if they'll show you around. Get their name, also write them. And here's a serious writer downer.

And I've seen this work so many times. When you meet somebody from the administration, write them a handwritten note. It doesn't have to be put in fact, I saw an article recently that said, messily written notes hit harder than beautifully handwritten note. Get some stationery from CBS. It does not have to be in printed stationery.

Put a colorful stamp on it, not a forever stamp. Get a colorful stamp. Elvis Presley stamp or elephants, whatever it is. Colorful stamp on it and send a note saying, hey. Thanks so much for your time.

It really meant a lot to me that you spent even 2 minutes showing me and my family around that. That will be digitized and put into your file. And will that be the thing that gets you in? It it may not be, but that extra gram weight on that side of the CSL when you apply, I cannot tell you what what weight that has. And I've seen that work with several of my applicants.

I started to work with an applicant that I had a couple years ago in Japan. You know? I lived in Japan for a long time. It's very much my second home, and this was a this was a graduate school student applying. So she was applying for a PhD program.

And, you know, this is not the kind of thing that's done in Japan. You do not reach out to deans in Japan. And I got yelled at by the applicant and her mother. They're based in London, but they're Japanese. They said you can do it anyway.

Do it anyway. Write to the dean. The dean called her from Tokyo and said I've never gotten a letter. This this is a wonderful letter, and she got it. This is a young lady whose father passed away of cancer when she was a a young lady, and she can write seek helical sequences in her head, and is the most competitive biopharmaceutical program in the world.

And she got it. And she's gonna cure cancer. She's gonna change the world. Is this what got her in? I don't know.

But it didn't hurt, and it took all of 2 minutes to do and FedEx to Tokyo. And and, again, just the act of doing it, these these tiny random acts of kindness, they go into your file. They also help you decide, is this really a school that I wanted to do to do to apply to? Because it takes 1 or 2 minutes to do. And you'll find out right away because very often, a campus that you thought you might like, you may think, you know, Chicago or Harvard or, you know, University of Gainesville was a school I really liked.

And then the second you step on the campus, you you'd be like, and this just doesn't feel right. Pay attention to your emotions. Learning to do this as a teenager is not just great practice for life. You're gonna have to self advocate when you get to campus anyway. And I also find it's a great, anxiety.

Look, it it it helps you challenge your anxiety because you lean into it. Right? If you have anxiety, right, you lean into it. May I give you an example of how that should have been Please do. Interviewing it when I was applying to college and I was having an alumni interview, at at panel I was fortunate to get in into.

And the, the alum interviewing me was no sense of humor. Like, if you took a sense of humor and just vacuumed it out of a human being, that's what this person was like. And I said in the interview, I said, I gotta tell you, I'm pretty nervous in this interview. And the guy just laughed. He said, you know, nope.

Nobody every everybody pretends to be Superman. He said that took a lot of guts. I said, just I I'm really nervous. And I just popped the bubble. I didn't feel nervous anymore.

And leaning kind of leaning into feelings of discomfort can be so liberating. Kids with OCD do learn how to lean into their uncomfortable feelings. So, hey, they're ahead of the curve here. They're way ahead of the curve and they have a lot to, they have a lot to teach and impart to other people who have it as well and people who don't. All right, Dan.

What happens if your kid is 18 years old, but they're just not ready for college yet? Yeah. It it's it's a great question. And it happens it happens a lot for for kids whether they have a CD or not. So here's the thing.

There's so much pressure right now. I see this a lot. Kids coming out of high school and all their friends are going to college, and they think, no no matter what, I've gotta go to college. Even if it's the last choice on my list. I always encourage kids when they're applying.

You know, parents listening to this and kids listening to this probably know, but you apply to schools that are called reach schools, the toughest schools to get into, target schools, which are somewhere in the middle and then safety schools. Schools with great schools, but schools that have they have a very good chance to get. And it's really continuum. But I always encourage kids to only apply to schools on that continuum that they would be happy to go to no matter what. So if the the school that's at the bottom of their list of safeties, it should still be a school they love.

If they decide along the way, I'm just not ready, that's a great opportunity for them to step back and say, I'm just not ready. I'm just not ready right now. And there are a lot of great things they can do during that. They may decide not to go to college at all. No one.

That's okay. That's okay. Because in the world that we're in right now, not going to college and maybe learning a trade or traveling and working in, I don't I don't know, kibbutz or working in a restaurant or just holding a job and holding responsibility or starting a side hustle. I I I worked with a I worked with a kid a couple years ago who was admitted to a school that a lot of other people would feel jealous about getting into in the school. Just said, I'm just not ready.

And, decided to start what's called the side hustle. It's basically a little job that you start in your own teaching other kids something he was very good at. Make quite a lot of money that year, and at the end of that year, decided, you know what? Now I'm ready. Now I'm ready to go to college.

It wasn't ready ready before that. So the answer to your question is, if you're not ready, you're not ready. And and you may be ready to perhaps take classes at a junior college, some combination thereof. So so for example, maybe, and we're talking about students who have OCD. Maybe the student who has OCD happens to be really good at writing or at chemistry or at playing an instrument.

Maybe they take a class at a junior college or a community college, sorry, something, and they start a side hustle teaching. I'll just use, I'll just use I I don't know. Math is an example. They happen to be very, very good at math. And they decide, you know what?

I'm gonna help some kids out of my neighborhood who don't have a lot of confidence in that. Well, there's no better way to learn something than to teach you. And, you wanna charge something for teaching. Because when there's the old adage in marketing. When people pay, they pay attention.

If you just do it for free, there's no value attached to it. But let's say you get 5 kids, you just do a little brochure, and you put that up in, you know, Craigslist or even in the local schools. And you say, this is, you know, $100 for 10 you know, 5 lessons and we're gonna get, you know, we could, you know, you get 5 kids doing that and you run those over a few weeks. You get a couple $1,000 in your pocket over the course of the year, and you're gonna also learn this great lesson about how to teach other people this stuff. The kids don't forget to a, you know, you're an 18 year old or you're 17 years at that point and you're working with 10, 11 years old.

Never forget, you know, to an 11 or 12 year old, an 18 year old, there's a god. Remember when we were little kids, like, even and that feeling of teaching something and leaving that impression behind on a young person, that's just incredibly rewarding. At the end of that year, you may feel you being the student may feel, you know what? Like, this was such an incredibly enriching experience now. I'm ready.

And I'm now I'm ready for maybe a school that wasn't on my list. Or I'm ready for an entirely different school. Or I've changed the what I was gonna be, you know, thinking I was gonna major. They they sometimes I call them majors anyway. They call them field of expressed interest.

You know, I thought I was gonna go in, as a math and econ major, and now I'm gonna go in as a, education and music. You don't know. And by the way, you know, unlike the schools in in, say, UK and Canada where it's harder to jump tracks, here in the United States, you know, you apply in other countries as well. The tracks that you apply to can help a little bit in terms of getting in, but you're not signing a blood oath. You can go in and declare you're gonna be an econ in a nursing major and change along the way.

But going in with intention really does help because, you know, you're gonna spend your 1st couple of semesters doing that. And I would rather see a a kid with or without OCD for that matter, but let's just say with OCD for the sake of this conversation, apply with great intention to a school he, she, or they is very interested in. And and really just kind of blow it out of the water during that 1st year, then go in with great fear and trepidation and, and have a very kind of frightening and and and difficult and challenging experience in their 1st semester because the kind of work they give you in college is very different from what you have in in high school. Right? I'll give you an example.

The the writing that you do in college, even in the 1st semester, is very different from the writing you do in high school. It's it's much more challenging. You gotta do citations. You gotta do very different kinds of work. And it may be that the student is very talented at that, but the amount of work they do is is is a lot more.

The other thing that affects that too is that when kids get into college when they're admitted, which is usually a quite early decision around December and a few regular applicants, you find out in the spring. But between the spring and the time you matriculate in the in the fall, not a lot of kids spend that time going, I'm gonna really keep my study skills up. I'm gonna work every single day out. It's I call it, you know, senior items. And so that that comes into play.

But if you're not ready, you're not ready. There's no shame in that. It's a great time. And they also have, you know, they just call it gap year, leap year. It's a great time to explore something that may you may not have thought about before, Like maybe work with other kids who have OCD.

So, Dan, many people, parents and kids, learn about the power of community. Having access to like minded people. What if a student finds a college that they really love, but there's like no OCD community there? Yeah. It's a great question.

So, couple of things. With the understanding that more and more schools do have and are growing organizations like that, you can always start one. Colleges, by the way, love love students who come in and start organizations like that. Colleges are businesses, but colleges, particularly American colleges, are really, I don't wanna say they're weak when it comes to mental health advocacy. They're realizing right now with a 30% dropout rate in American colleges due to anything involving mental health.

Dual diagnosis, addictions, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, any anything along any kind of a spectrum. We're just stressed. Just stressed about, you know, being away from home, having too much work. It's it's a much more competitive world than it ever was before for teenagers for a lot of reasons, for great many reasons. And very often, there are organizations that already exist at schools.

But if they don't exist, what a great opportunity to start one. You'll find amazing support from, from the from the school on doing that. You may actually find some money to do that. They're gonna put that in your pocket, but the school will say, great. Here's, you know, whatever, $500 or $1,000 to work with the hospital, a local hospital, or if the school has a medical center around it already, to work with a doctor there to put this in place.

And I will tell you, I I cannot imagine a school on which you are the only it's impossible to imagine a school on which you are the only person who has OCD. Maybe the only person who admits it upfront, but it'll be like a magnet. Well, Dan, unfortunately, there's a significant percentage of college aid students who have OCD, And there are any number of people, health care professionals, who know nothing about treating OCD. So this is a real challenge for for our family members, for the kids we love who are, you know, trying to launch into a successful adult life. Yeah.

Yeah. It is. It is. And it's a it's a very poorly it's a poorly understood, you know, diagnosis. You are not your diagnosis.

You are you are you, a wonderful person. You're you happen to have OCD, which is one component. Right? Depending on how you look at that and frame it and use it and deal with it and tackle it. But, we we all have things that are problems, and every problem has the other side of it, which is an opportunity.

This is what you know, everybody talks about storytelling. Yeah. Storytelling is so hot right now in marketing circles. You wanna be in storytelling. We're just naturally wired as human beings for storytelling.

We are our own stories. And so imagine a movie in which boy meets girl, they fall in love. They have a great relationship. Everything's wonderful. Movie ends.

What a horrible movie. There's no there's nothing interesting about that movie because there's no conflict in them. Conflict drives stories forward. And what better way to embrace conflict than by looking at and and as painful as this can be, what you have, which is your diagnosis. However you were diagnosed and whomever has diagnosed you and your growth along the way, it's like, okay.

Great. This is a conflict that I have within me. What are ways that I have, embraced or dealt with this conflict before in ways that have served or not served me? How can I replicate the results that worked for me before? And how can I how can I look at and perhaps with humor the ways where it has not served me?

Humor is a great release. And I'm not saying that, you know, there's anything necessarily funny about OCD, but you gotta sometimes just look at how ridiculous life can be. And and, again, I do not mean in any way to be disrespectful to the parents who are listening today or to the the the the their kids or anybody they know who has this. But sometimes you just gotta lean back and go, wow. This was because because in retrospect, when we look back on the experiences we have and you you you kinda do that face plant, you know, and you're like, oh my my gosh.

I just can't believe that happened. Or you look back and you're like, I can't believe how well I handled that given that situation. Like, I I never saw that coming. And those I never saw that coming in retrospect turn out to be the just the greatest life lessons. So Dan, speaking of stories, and I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer here, but you had mentioned that you advise that kids apply to reach schools, and there's a chance that kids won't be accepted.

What story do you advise students tell themselves when the answer is no? Yeah. No. It's a great it's a great question. Listen.

So I we're we're talking about schools. I I will use Ivy's as a loose example because, you know, I I'll just throw out a couple of numbers, and here's one that I know. Harvard Harvard has acceptance rate of 3.19%. I mean, you know, 3% of of the people who apply get it. Now the other side of that is acceptance ratios, yield ratios as the schools call them.

80 only 80% of the kids who are or 83% of the kids who are accepted by Harvard go to Harvard, which irks Harvard a lot. They're like, why aren't we getting a 100% of the kids? So colleges are businesses. And I I think that when you apply to competitive schools, really any schools, you need to be prepared for the eventuality that they're going to say no. And a lot of the reinforcement mechanisms that happen in this business in the college application process, particularly when it comes to the reinforcement mechanisms that are happening in high schools where all the friends are talking about applying to these competitive schools.

And competitive schools don't have to be IVs. They can be any any schools that'll help. But you're talking about schools, top 100 schools, top 200 schools. And many of these are state flagship schools. In states like Virginia, University of Virginia, University of Michigan, here in California, the UCs.

Even in my home state where I originally grew up in Massachusetts, UMass was never a school that was really, it's always been a great school. But over the last couple of years, they've porn porn or porn as I also say it. Porn, at the end of this year, it'll be nearly $1,000,000,000 into that. You may not get in. You have better chance as an applicant within that state of getting it.

But if you don't get in, here's the thing. You give it your very best shot. You just give it absolutely your very best shot. And and I'll come back to what I said before about this thing that took place in this in this suburb of New York. When they don't let you in, it's not because of I mean, you you under you have to understand that if you're applying to very, very top colleges, you need to have great grades.

And and and, like, kids who have all As and were the captain of this team and that team, they don't necessarily get into into the top schools. They're those schools could be filled up many times over with kids who had all a's and the best scores. They're looking to find balanced classes. But, again, with that understanding, it could give you absolutely best shot. If the school doesn't take you, wasn't a good fit.

It wasn't a good fit for them and by definition, wasn't a good fit for you. This is why you you go you as the applicant, not your parents. Because they're not admitting your parents. They're admitting you. Your parents have great intentions.

I do not mean this in any way to be disrespectful for parents, but it's you who's applying. And your parents will be helpful along the way. They certainly they certainly want to be and and and can be and should be. You wanna apply to schools that are meaningful for you. And if you end up, it's rare that I see a kid applied to a you know, you should be applying to somewhere between 9 and 12 schools.

Sometimes a few more. I did speak to a, not in my tribe, but a father of Napoca recently, and they said, how many kids did your kid apply to schools did you get applied to? And he said, 23. I said, that is insane number of schools. But I've also seen kids apply to 3 schools, and that is also not a good strategy.

You wanna apply to schools that you really love and that are really gonna be meaningful for you. And one of them is going to take you. And if it'll take you that year, try again the next year. If you really have your heart set on UMass or or or, you know, but whatever the school is. But but don't get your heart set on schools that have single digit acceptance rates.

You know? University of Chicago is, like, a 66% right now or be because they they may not. And it and it won't be because you mentioned that you have OCD on your application or that you weren't an all a student. It may just be that, you know, the ratio is wrong. You know, schools also have their their ratios for what they're looking for.

You know, I, I'm a Caucasian guy who grew up in Massachusetts and, and live in California. You know? But if I were 18 years old applying and the school to which I were were applying happened to be looking that year for more Latina field hockey players from Alaska. I'm not a Latina field hockey player from Alaska, and that wouldn't be the category under which I would fall. So very often, it has to do with, like, what they're looking for in terms of building that class.

I'm not saying that's the only factor there, but it does again beg the question of applying early. The earlier you get get those applications in, the better your chances. Because they are, like I don't think they're the right metaphor. They're building the foundation of that class from the bottom up. And procrastination it's easy to procrastinate when fear creeps into the equation.

You know? Fear creeps into the whole thing because it is scary to apply to these schools. People look at, you know, my gosh. I gotta apply to 215 schools. We don't even begin.

And it's that old, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? You start early. I always advise that the kids of whom I work, but start thinking about the narrative on those essays the summer before you apply. So that by the time you hit senior year, I love my my applicants, the kids with whom I work in my tribe, not to have to really have that much on them by the time they hit senior year for a couple of reasons. First of all, senior year, fall semester of senior year, your grades matter.

Second of all, it's your senior year. It's a rite of passage. You should be able to enjoy your senior year. Now inevitably, there are gonna be 1 or 2 schools to which you will want to apply at the last minute. But I I will tell you, I I've I've been to this a 1000000 times.

Not in my tribe, but I've seen this happen a 1000000 times. Even the best intention kids end up applying at the last minute and it reduces their chances. It increases their stress level and it decreases their chances of getting into these schools that they really identify. So coming back to your question, being not accepted, which is not the same thing as being rejected, builds, you know, builds calluses. It builds those muscles.

And, you got 2 choices. You can kinda go to pieces or you can be like, you know what? That just wasn't the right the right thing for me. And this comes back to something that we talked about a few minutes ago, which is when you as an applicant see yourself as much as the buyer as the seller, this is the school's great opportunity to admit me. I'm a good great candidate.

You know, I think so boastful. Like, I yeah. I bring so much to the I've worked really hard throughout my life to to improve myself. I've really I've done a lot of things and learned things along the way. To have OCD.

Yeah. You know what? There's some superpower in that in that, and I'm gonna bring that to campus. I'm gonna learn a lot along the way. I'm probably gonna reach out to some other people.

There may be somebody who doesn't have OCD across the hall from from me, but they're crying because they miss home or they're stuck on something. I'm gonna you know, I'm going to be of service. The the whatever it is that you're doing, you reach out and you'd be of service to somebody in any way at all. Those tiny acts of kindness mean an awful lot. And and I have to tell you, when you are able to express those tiny acts of kindness, just even writing.

Again, those letters we talked about. Those those little tiny thank yous. Those little things they really add it over. That's your best that's your best chance. And when you don't get in, you know, those those calluses.

There you know, here in Hollywood we have, you know, I live in Hollywood, California with writers, and they go to pieces when they don't sell their first screenplay. But I have friends who've written screenplays. They have they are proud of their collections of rejection letters. They have them papered all over the wall. Yeah.

It's a it's a badge it's a badge of a badge of courage. Maybe I'll do a podcast just about managing disappointment because this can be huge. I know that as parents of kids of OCD, we observe that a lot of times the story that kids our kids tell themselves about failure in air quotes translates to who they are. There's something wrong with them. And I really love how you reframe it just in terms of goodness of fit.

It just wasn't a good match. It doesn't say anything about your value as a person. It just wasn't a good match. Yeah. No.

Absolutely. I mean, I mean, you really nailed it with the stories that we tell ourselves. You know? I mean, it it it it really goes to the question of, like, what what's real? Like, I I'm not a science.

I I would never sort of train in science, but this fascination with with, quantum mechanics and particle physics. And it's just the question of the what's the real nature of reality? Like, reality as we used to perceive it isn't real anymore. I have this there's this wonderful story. Boy, I wish I'd had this kid as a student, but this happened in the in the in the eighties.

But this is fantastic thing. The kid got rejected from got a rejection letter from I think it was Dartmouth. And wrote back to Dartmouth saying, I I must respectfully reject your rejection letter. Like, with the greatest respect on this. And then the dean called and said, you know what?

It's the best letter I've ever you're you're in. And and I I loved it because it was just so in your face. It was such a just a different tactic. And again, doing something different, this is the thing. This is what helps punch through the clutter at these schools.

And really with anything in life, If you're applying for an internship, which you will be a long way. I mean, it's not like you just go to college and magically pop out the other side with the job. You are going to be, you know, applying for teaching assistantships. You'll be applying for summer internships. And it's that standing out and trying something different, in a way that nobody else has done before, in a way that's meaningful for you that really helps you stand out.

You know? I I I cannot tell you how many times that, you know, the kids will apply in the very same way. You know? I I worked here, and I've gotten all a's. And and those are all great.

But nothing plays like, you know, I got a bunch of f's before I get all a's. And when I when I when I failed, well, I really gave it 500% until I kinda figured out why I was getting that. And here's where it turned around for me. And I'm gonna tell you that's a much more interesting story than I've been an a student my entire life. And why?

Because it's different. And people can relate to being different because we're all different in our own way. We we we are all different. There's nobody who's been Superman. Think of any superhero.

Every superhero has his, her his, or her own version of Kryptonite. This is just reminding me of a little episode in my own life. I was a physics major at Berkeley. I applied to graduate school in Berkeley, and I didn't get in. So I made an appointment with one of the physicists who was in charge of applications.

And I asked him, I'm just curious, Like, why didn't I get in? What could I have done to get a better outcome? And he just looked at me and he said, well, you're just not smart enough. Yeah. You know, like, candor candor can just be incredibly, incredibly refreshing.

Yeah. You know? And you you hear that. You know? It's like rather than wondering, like, why am I in?

Was it a terrible person or or or something? And, you know, you know, what do you say to that? You're like, well, I I applaud you. You're just unguarded candor. Thank you so, so very much, for that.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And and, you know, you sometimes are able to flip those rejections around like the like the like the kid who rejected the rejection, and sometimes you can't. But, you know, you never know unless you try it. Right?

You never know. And better to try that. I tried it and it blew up in my face, but I wouldn't have known unless I tried it. And, like, it's that old thing we used to hear about, like, training for athletics. No pain, no gain.

You never know until you step outside your comfort zone. What is where where's the where's the zone of discomfort? Staying inside your zone of discomfort thinking that you're a bad person and saying, wow. You know, I wonder what was going on in the mind of the dean and here's why it wasn't invented. Do you know, going into that that spin cycle or saying, you know what?

I'm gonna go against my normal way would be of doing things and reach out and find out why and ask why. And maybe the act of asking why. Right? It's just that act of trying you you're physicist. Right?

Like, part like, light. Right? It's a particle in a wave. It can't be both, and yet it is. And so, right, and so you reach you reach out and you're like, you know what?

What what would you have done? I when you were when you were 18, what would you have done if I were the genie to make to create a different outcome? And I think they may say, you know what? Nothing. Like, this was just how it was meant to be.

But sometimes when you ask a question like that, you know what? I really don't know. I honestly don't know. And sometimes just the act of asking a question can flip things around. Will you get it?

I, I, don't know. But it well, here's one I do know. Just accepting things for the way for the way that they are will not change them. And and sometimes asking the question or trying something differently, even if it doesn't result in a different outcome, will result in a different outcome for you because it will create a different experience for you that you will then replicate and try another another way. And even if it doesn't result in that different outcome for you, you're gonna tell that story to somebody else, which will have that butterfly effect on somebody else.

And they're gonna come back to you and be like, you know what? I tried that tactic. It sounded ridiculous to me at the time he tried it, but I, I, I ended up getting that job. It was at Trader Joe's or grocery store or Goldman Sachs. It doesn't matter.

It's just this is how we help one another. Right? It's like it's like this this tiny, tiny act of kindness. Even if it's I don't mean to sound like Johnny do gooder, but, you know, these little acts of kindness, like bringing the cart back to the cart corral at at at Trader Joe's when you're 10 feet away so the person who's got that, you know, $8 an hour job who really wants to get home to their kids doesn't have to do that. That's that little tiny butterfly effect.

Maybe they get home in time to make a sandwich. I I don't know. What I do know is not doing it doesn't give you that experience of having that experience. Well, Dan, we could talk all day, but I wanna honor the time of my podcast listening. Maybe we just should keep on talking all day.

Maybe it shouldn't. I love that. I love that. But listen, if my listeners don't have the time, can you tell us how they might get in touch with you and how you help families? Yeah.

Absolutely. So I, my my organization is called Elite Student Coach. I'm at www.elitestudentcoach.com. Just the way it sounds. Elitestudent coach.com.

And I'll leave a link. You can write me at Dan. Yep. There's a link, and they'll put the link in it. It's [email protected].

And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and and give people my my private self because, you know, I you and I are friends, and I love this show. I'm honored to be on here. And here it is. 310-400-9134. Please reach reach out to me.

I'm not gonna give you a sales pitch or try to put you on a old brand automobile. Again, I don't know why I said that. But 310-409-134. Please reach out to me. And when you do, tell me that you're you're a listener of Vicki's.

And, you know, I've I've Vicki and I been friends for a while. I'm so honored to know her, and I'm so honored to be on today. Thank you so much for having me. Well, Dan, you solved It was a great pleasure. A big, big problem.

I mean, this college application stuff is just like an anxiety pressure cooker. And I think you're kind of the relief valve. Right? You know how this system works. You know how to approach it in a a way that deescalates the the concern and the anxiety.

It's very kind of you to say, I will tell you this though. It's a circular process because my mentees are constantly coming back and teaching me their experience along the way. So, you know, although I am the mentor and they are the mentee, it's a circular process. And, one of the things I work with my mentees on is how to then go on and mentor other people. Because this is a a legacy project for me.

And, there you know, it's a pay it forward mentoring program. And if I can help kids learn how to mentor other people, not only is it monetizable, but it's a skill that, they can use, their entire life. And, I, you know, I I think a lot of people don't realize how much beauty and power they have within them until they actually step outside that comfort zone and try. So, again, thank you so much for honoring you by having me on your show. Well, thank you again, Dan, And thank you for your time and your commitment to helping you and your family be freed from OCD.

You can do this.